Whānau looking for answers heard 'a lot of scrapping' at debate

A political commentator has described last night's Kaupapa Māori Debate as 'scrappy', saying they could understand if voters were getting 'hōhā' of politicians getting into each other instead of the issues.

Political commentators Whatitiri Te Wake, from Te Ao Māori News, and Esther Robinson were on Breakfast this morning to unpack what unfolded on the debate.

"You throw Shane Jones, Rawiri Waititi, Willie Jackson, and Tama Potaka behind a table, and you're guaranteed to get a bit of a firecracker of a show, and that's exactly what we saw," Te Wake told Breakfast.

He described the debate as "very scrappy" and "very passionate".

Te Wake appreciated hearing from National's Tama Potaka and ACT's Nicole McKee "to get that real plurality of voices".

"There's that kōrero out there that Māori voters vote a certain way.

"What we found over our polls at Whakaata Māori in recent weeks, there are actually quite a number of whānau Māori who would still give their party vote to the likes of ACT, New Zealand First, and to National.

"So on that basis, beautiful," he said.

He could understand how whānau were also getting tired and hōhā of the back-and-forth.

"They're looking to our politicians for answers, for the pathway forward. But all we heard was a lot of scrapping."

Robinson said Greens co-leader Marama Davidson gave the standout performance.

"She was able to show that you don't have to be the loudest person on the podium and still make your points well.

"And perhaps that could be reflective of how well the Greens are doing in the Māori seats this election."

She said it was good to see McKee in a different format.

"There were some vulnerable moments for her, but she generally came well prepared and had a tough debate for her, given that only 3% of Māori voters support the ACT Party."

She praised co-moderators Te Aniwa Hurihanganui and Scotty Morrison for wrangling the seven candidates, saying there were some great “warm, funny” moments among tackling serious topics.

Te Wake said the discussions around Te Tiriti o Waitangi and constitutional transformation, as well as te reo Māori, will give voters a lot to think about.

Te Wake said many whānau would have watched the debate in hopes of getting urgent attention to issues they face at the supermarket.

"I don't think that would have given voters that reassurance that help is on the way."

When asked if politicians have fallen out of touch with the public on cost of living, Robinson agreed.

"The gangs issue had an opportunity for that to potentially provide some penalty in the polls on the side of the left bloc. National was campaigning very strongly on that but it hasn't really hit because crime and punishment isn't a really big topic in this election.

"People are very much focused on the cost of living. If this was the 2023 election that could have been a really decisive game changing moment, but this election, cost of living is king."

The seven main political parties selected representatives to participate in TVNZ’s Kaupapa Māori Debate held last night.

Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson, NZ First MP Shane Jones, Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, ACT deputy leader Nicole McKee, National Party's Tama Potaka, Labour Party's Willie Jackson, and Opportunity Party’s Christchurch Central candidate Eden Skipper took part.

The debate was moderated by Te Karere presenter Scotty Morrison and 1News Māori Affairs Correspondent Te Aniwa Hurihanganui.

In the first question of the night, candidates were asked to name the ancestor that connected them directly to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. All except ACT Party deputy leader Nicole McKee were able to answer.

"On both the Māori and the British side, I don't know - like many Māori out there," she said.

NZ First is proposing to get rid of the Waitangi Tribunal within the first 100 days if the party was in government. Jones said politics is not static - it’s dynamic - and the institution from 1975 doesn’t serve modern purposes.

"It's not an institution that should remain aloof from the pressures and the democratic process."

Instead, an "enhanced, reformed" Te Puni Kōkiri would absorb its duties.

Jones has also proposed to force Ngāpuhi into a single commercial settlement. When challenged last night on this issue, he said every month the government was borrowing billions of dollars to keep the economy afloat.

Labour's Jackson interjected: "This is someone who wants to borrow $30 billion to buy the BNZ. Their latest budget is at $71 billion but he can't find the extra money for Māori."

Jackson went on to criticise the government, saying it was the most anti-Māori government of his lifetime.

Opportunity's Skipper, a newcomer to the political arena, said his party would not support the abolishment of the Waitangi Tribunal.

The Green Party wants to make the Tribunal's recommendations binding. Co-leader Marama Davidson said the people showed their support in showing up "time and time again" for Te Tiriti.

Jackson defended the Labour Party's stance against entreching the treaty.

"My Uncle Moana Jackson was...very clear that the Treaty should not be entrenched, it should not play a part in the Westminster system."

He said the government needed to support and resource it but it should remain independent.

Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri defended his party's stance on gangs, saying a "right-wing mechanism" has been used to pour more fire on "something that actually doesn't exist".

He said his party represents all whānau, and gestured to his fellow panellists.

"All of these people have whānau in gangs, and the thing is, you've got to build the correlation between breaches of the Tiriti o Waitangi and what has created gangs in the first place."

The candidates were asked to estimate the cost of a bag of shopping containing butter, bread, 1kg of mince, milk and eggs, totalling $48.20.

NZ First deputy leader Shane Jones admitting he “never go[es] shopping” after guessing the haul cost $35.

“I've got daughters, wives, and other people to do that,” he said.

“I'm not allowed to go shopping. I attract a lot of negative attention.”

National's Potaka said the party was focusing on keeping food inflation down.

Waititi said Te Pāti Māori is taking a two-pronged approach by putting money in people’s pockets and attacking the supermarket duopoly and ensuring there are Māori-owned supermarkets.

He said Māori have interests across fishing, agriculture, dairy and horticulture and having the opportunity to be able to contribute to a Māori-owned supermarket will help break up the duopoly.

Jackson said Labour's policy was focused on putting a stop on price gouging where supermarkets were "ripping off" customers.

Jones said NZ First are going start by ensuring there's competition in the food supply chain. "We're going to stand up for the suppliers and producers who have been gouged."

Davidson said the Greens would ban excessive price gouging "immediately", and brought up their plan to establish a publicly-owned supermarket with the objective of affordable pricing to challenge New Zealand's grocery duopoly.

ACT's McKee said they were not in support of a "Pak'n'Soviet" but rather getting rid of the bureaucracy to help more supermarkets open efficiently, citing an example of a supermarket in Christchurch that took four years and $3 million to open.

Skipper said the Opportunity Party supports "much stronger teeth" for the Commerce Commission.

"It's not just kai at the supermarket, it's also on the energy bills that we have...some of the industries are some of the most profitable in the world - banks. We also need clear, tougher rules to ensure we can get those prices down."

He said their modelling has shown people would be better off by $30 per week once the proper regulation was in place to get rid of price gouging.

National's Potaka defended his government’s track record with kaupapa Māori, listing $250 million for marae and $48 million to Te Matatini, driven through Whānau Ora, as achievements.

He was asked whether the government was being divisive.

“There’s been some challenges along the way but iwi leaders continue to call me on a regular basis, and Māori leaders, to try and do things together.”

Jackson, a former Māori development minister, was asked how he would rate incumbent Potaka's performance over the last three years between one and 10.

"Negative one," said Jackson.

"It's very parliamentary of him," Potaka retorted.

When Jackson continued to criticise Potaka and the National-led government, Potaka fired back with a reference to the 2004 Foreshore and Seabed, before the interaction devolved into an argument.

On health, Opportunity's Skipper said governments have failed to back the healthcare system and failed by not giving long-term clarity.

He then turned to his fellow panellists and challenged them to indicate who would support a 10-year funded healthcare plan to address inequities.

Davidson said the Green Party had announced theirs.

Jones said in te reo Māori that it wasn’t for a boy to order him, a matua, around, and refused to answer the challenge.

A new study in the New Zealand Medical Journal found that ethnicity remains an independent predictor of preventable death even after adjusting for age, deprivation and income.

ACT’s McKee was asked to defend her party’s position that health funding should follow need not race based on the research.

“With what you've just said, then certain people with certain conditions would still be in need and would still get the opportunity to get that health assessment and get the medicines,” she said.

“What we don't agree with is that only those with a particular race are the ones that would be eligible when they're not. Need above race is required for everything, not just the health system.”

Davidson, a breast cancer survivor, responded saying ACT’s policy was “absolutely” racist. She said systemic racism across healthcare has long been researched and established.

“I want to be clear, when you have women with breast cancer who are diagnosed, when you strip away age, income, location, all other identifying factors – it is ethnicity, Nicole, it is ethnicity that we need to base the funding for our services on because it is ethnicity that is the ground for need.”

But McKee was not convinced, despite further attempts by fellow panellists to continue the argument.

“As a country we cannot be so divisive that we start separating everybody based on their race - that is not racist, the division comes when you start saying that one lot needs something over someone else,” said McKee.

The candidates have weighed in on how they’re protecting te reo.

McKee said they were already protecting the taonga through the introduction of charter schools but added that learning the language was a choice.

Meanwhile, NZ First’s Jones defended his party making English an official language.

“Thirty percent of all the people tonight standing and living in New Zealand weren’t born here,” he said.

“New Zealand First is concerned about the flow of migrants compromising the cohesiveness of our society.

“We introduced the English language, so the changing demography of New Zealand knows that this is an English-speaking country. Those of us who are bilingual, we should support it, and we should continue to fund where appropriate those initiatives.”

National’s Potaka, meanwhile, hit back against the characterisation that the government had actively removed te reo from schools, street signs and government departments, among other areas.

“We have actively reinforced our commitment through te reo Māori, through Te Matatini, through Te Māori Tū, through a range of other initiatives.”

Te Pāti Māori’s Waititi called for te reo to be prioritised in classes.

“We need to make Māori compulsory. But we won’t strap you into it,” he said. “We will we will treat you with a lot of kindness and welcome you to our language. But we won't do it what you did to our ancestors and strap the s**t out of them to learn English.”

For the final question of the debate, candidates were asked what Māori word best describes their party.

Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson said ‘manaaki’.

NZ First deputy Shane Jones chose ‘tū rangatira’.

Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi came with ‘whakarukea’.

More on this topic

'No fluffing around': Voters invited to TVNZ’s Kaupapa Māori Debate

Seven main political parties have put up representatives for the debate starting at 7.30pm.

Te Ao Māori

Thursday 10:00am

4:02

ACT deputy leader Nicole McKee said she didn’t know many Māori words, and instead described her party as ‘dedicated’.

Both Labour’s Willie Jackson and Opportunity’s Eden Skipper picked ‘kotahitanga’, while National Party’s Tama Potaka chose ‘mahi tahi’.