NZR chief executive Mark Robinson has returned to France for the business-end of the All Blacks World Cup campaign. Before his departure this week he sat down with Scotty Stevenson to discuss a range of issues in the game and, yes, including his feelings on Australian rugby’s week from hell.
On the agenda:
- Super Rugby set to return to Japan
- USA opportunities still being worked through
- Spain and Germany eyed for European growth
- Rugby Australia boss offered NZ support
- Provincial Rugby still important to NZR
- Initial Public Offerings not yet on the cards
It’s been a tough week for our friends across the ditch and we know the relationship between New Zealand Rugby and Rugby Australia has often been fractious, but ultimately the two nations swim in the same pond. What’s been the reaction from you and from NZR to the rather parlous state they have found themselves in?
“I feel for them. I have been in touch with my counterpart [Rugby Australia CEO] Phil Waugh to offer a bit of support.”
What does that look like? Is it just a phone call to say, ‘chin up’?
[Laughs] “Oh, we exchanged a few messages and I certainly let them know we were thinking of them. This is a tough space, high-performance international sport, and we know the margins are very fine now and that this is a super competitive tournament, so I touched base and we’ll hopefully chat in the coming days.
“Phil has only been in the role a short time and we’ve made an effort to connect. We’re both former players and we played a little bit against each other, and I would like to think that we are now both here to support each other through not only times like this, but as we continue work with the trans-Tasman game, and the future of the game throughout the Pacific.”
There was a time when most New Zealanders would have thumbed the nose and had a laugh at Australia’s expense but that does not seem to be the case now. Are you worried at all about where their international game is at and what that means for rugby in this part of the world and for what that means for your players, whose only regular competition is against Australian club sides?
“You know, we saw in Super Rugby the likes of the Reds and Brumbies go deep in the competition and were really competitive around play-off time, so we know they have plenty of talent. It’s not for us perhaps to comment publicly, or at all for that matter, around things like appointments and decisions in that space.”
You’re referring to coaching appointments?
[Laughs] “Just in general! So we’re focussed on how we build this competition into one that is fantastic for fans, provides the basis for players to develop, be challenged, and have great experiences that help them on the international stage.
“The issues around the Joint Venture have been talked about and we are getting closer on that and we just have to work together to make sure the competition is as good as it possibly can be. We’re certainly there for the Australians if Phil and Hamish [McLennan, Rugby Australia Chairman] ever want to chew the fat around things that might help them in that space then we are certainly willing to talk.”
You talk about the Joint Venture for Super Rugby’s future and we know there have been some heated moments between the parties during these conversations. Do you feel that those discussions are on a more even keel now and that there is positivity between the parties?
“We’re getting there. The reality is both countries have a focus on World Cups, and for us we have the Black Ferns back in action this weekend, and our NPC is in full swing so there is a lot going on and that makes it hard to finalise things. We’re certainly tracking in the right direction and we believe things are in a good place where both nations are respected. Now we need to push on and make it work.”
I know you’re not close to Australia’s negotiations, but NZR has done its deal with private equity and Australia have, for now, pulled out of their own efforts to seek a private equity partner as a capital raising strategy. Were you surprised that approach has been stopped dead in its tracks?
“We’d had some signals from Phil and Hamish throughout the Bledisloe series that it was a possible scenario in terms of the alternative strategies they were looking at between debt and equity so it wasn’t a complete surprise. They’ve obviously chosen a path and tested the market and while we haven’t spoken subsequent to that decision they are obviously comfortable with the direction they are heading in for now.”
Does that make you more comfortable with the deal you were able to reach with Silver Lake and the timing of that deal?
“We’ve always maintained that it was the right thing for the game here at that time and I guess where the markets have gone internationally and the position of certain sport rights or timing has proved to be right. That doesn’t mean we’re not keeping close to what the Australians are doing and thinking. They’ll find their own way with that and they have reached out a lot to gain some insights into some of the stuff we did and how we approached it, and we’ve been able to help there. They have pushed pause for now but they will likely come back to it in due course.”
I want to stay on the business side of things. Silver Lake is now a part of the eco-system here. Initial monies have been distributed but a big part of this deal was to use their expertise to grow revenues and uncover new opportunities. So what’s in the pipeline or already on the go as part of that plan?
“The biggest move has happened in the content side with the launch of NZR+ [New Zealand Rugby’s streaming service which is housed on the Endeavour Streaming platform. As of the end of 2022, Silver Lake held a 31.5% stake in Endeavour Group, the platform’s parent company] and that fan engagement piece has been a big pillar in all of this. We’ve always said that this will be a platform that will evolve and grow over time. We’ll listen to fans and we hope that will create value for the game.
“We also have a number of programmes in the area of licensing and e-commerce retail and we have benefitted from the input of incoming board members of New Zealand Rugby Commercial [NZRC] and Silver Lake in particular.”
What does that look like? When you say e-commerce are you essentially talking about merchandising?
“Yes, effectively. Obviously, the extension of the Adidas partnership has been announced so there is a chance to work with them in markets where NZR+ will feature. We have been very open about the opportunities we see in different markets around major events and games. We announced a Memorandum of Understanding with Japan [as did Australia, to ensure regular game-staging there], and the USA is another area in which we are exploring opportunities with that lead-in to the 2031 and 2033 World Cups. Europe has appeal when you consider markets such as Spain and Germany, and Georgia too. That’s certainly a flavour of what we are looking into, but I would stress we are really in the formulation stage and there is still much to be done before we have concrete plans.
The US is an interesting market and I note Major League Rugby (MLR) is desperate for a capital injection for that tournament as well. Part of the remit for Global Rugby Opportunities [the entity seed-funded by Silver Lake and tasked with exploring investment opportunities in partnership with New Zealand Rugby and the New Zealand Rugby Players’ Association] is to invest in tournament and even teams around the world. Is MLR something you might look at?
“Well, Global Rugby Opportunities, or GRO, isn’t something we’ve been focussed on in the first 14 months or so of the establishment of NZRC. It is certainly something we could look at, but there is plenty of work to be done in the States before we look at what an investment opportunity could look like there. It is a very complex stakeholder environment when you compare it with Japan given the JRFU have a very similar role to ours as NZR and that means the agreement is purely bilateral.
“When you think about the States, there is USA Rugby for which World Rugby hold a number of commercial rights, then you have MLR which has its own structure. It all means we have to take our time to think about what that looks like.
“There are some opportunities which are more straight-forward, especially around major events. What we have learned from the past is that going into that market every four or five years for one-off events does not create long-term partnerships and growth. What we have discovered with Japan is that annual exposure through multiple fixtures is something that works.
“We’re looking at Super Rugby teams heading to Japan in February and then we may have mid-year and end-of-year international fixtures and then conversations with partners, broadcasters and clubs are much more familiar.
“The question is how can this be replicated in other parts of the world. And as part of that consideration we have player welfare issues because we can’t just continue to play games all year. We also have restrictions around the existing calendar and the availability of opposition so at the international level we have to think about.
“There are murmurs about the United States potentially becoming a home for Super Rugby but right now we are focussed on standing up the Independent Commission and getting that running. The women’s game in the States is of real interest. They are getting closer to investment through the college system there and so what might that mean for Super Rugby Aupiki in the future?”
“Ultimately, we still have limited resources so getting the strategy right first is the key thing here.”
I want to talk about the recent governance review. There was a lot to digest but one of the findings was that the executive of New Zealand Rugby also needed to take a wee look at itself. As Chief Executive I am sure that kind of thing stung a bit, but more importantly what did you learn from that, and was there any mea culpa moment as you read through those findings?
“I am always learning and as an organisation we have worked through some extraordinary times when you think of the pandemic, and the spinoffs that have posed their own challenges. I have done plenty of reflecting and the reality of the review is that it took a very wide, whole-of-game approach and it had observations about different aspects of the game. We don’t want to get too into the weeds with that. To your point, we certainly have to acknowledge that there have been some lessons to be learned but the key findings are around governance and our role is to make sure the board have got the tools and support to engage in the process required.
“There will be things in the review that the Provincial Unions may have taken issue with and with respect to the player market, the Players’ Association may have some issues too, so our view is not to get too bogged down. It is clear the focus is now on consultation.”
Which has already begun, so what is the tenor of the dialogue to date between the Provincial Unions and NZR and where do they stand on their understanding of what is required of them when it comes to changing the nature of the organisation?
“Ultimately any reform will be decided by the voting members of NZR [the 26 Provincial Unions and the Māori Rugby Union] so they are spending time digesting the review and they each have their own boards and processes to work through. We’ve had a little bit of interaction and they seem to be really engaged. Ultimately it is for the NZR Board to lead that process and us, as an executive team, to provide that support.
“It’s not for me to comment on the governance model or recommendations but the big reflection has been that the overarching theme of the review is that the game needs to change. That’s been something NZR has been consistent about over the last three years. Be it sustainability, be it engagement, be it about inclusivity – all of those things form reasoning for why we wanted an investment partner and why we are trying things to make change across the game.
If I can jump back briefly, there has been chat about public offerings in terms of the commercial entities (NZRC and GRO). Is there ongoing work in this area or are these things, as agreed to in the initial deal, to be looked at well down the track?
"I’m certainly not aware of any active work in this space. It’s something that was covered at the time of the deal but not listed as a huge priority. That’s the way it stands right now."
While we’re jumping back, let’s just touch on the relationship between New Zealand Rugby (NZR) and New Zealand Rugby Commercial (NZRC). There may be some people who don’t quite understand how this all works. Who’s the tail and who’s the dog here and which is wagging which?
[Laughs] “Well we don’t see the relationship like that! Craig [appointed NZRC CEO Craig Fenton] hasn’t quite started yet as he is still in the UK but he clearly has some great insights into where we see opportunities. What we are working toward is a very collaborative partnership across the two organisations because there is a serious amount of cross-over. In any given setting that will be the way it works.”
OK, but as a layman, can we be clear that NZR owns NZRC, rather than the other way around?
“Yes! Absolutely! NZR has five appointed directors of the nine on the board, and I sit on that along with Patsy [NZR Chair, Dame Patsy Reddy] and Bailey Mackey and we have a lot of oversight and understanding of what is happening at NZRC and we share services to provide people and capability. That’s the way it works, and it will be a model that will evolve over time. It’s easy to get caught up in structures and reporting lines but ultimately this will succeed through great relationships. We’re excited about the new frontier.”
How are you? Are you still committed to being in this job long-term? Have you engaged in any evaluation on that given it has been a fairly savage time with on-field issues, your own challenges around appointments and some public backlash pertaining to that, the pandemic and, shall we say, some unruly neighbours from time to time? Where are you at and are you still keen to continue?
“Well, look, I love the role and I am hugely passionate and love all levels of the game. It’s been a part of my life for a long, long time and I have been really fortunate to have the connection to the game that I do as it’s been massively influential and informative for me as a person.
“I see some amazing opportunities for the game sitting on that frontier we discussed before and hopefully we’re just working into a more settled time now that we can all look forward to.”
So, the feet are still well and truly under the desk and you’re not looking for the escape hatch?
"No! I don’t see it like that at all. I have a lot of faith in the game, and while we have some serious issues that we need to work through here, the game in New Zealand is still in good health. The game always finds a way through, and despite the challenges that have been outlined in the recent review, I have a deep faith that the people here have a huge amount of care and respect for rugby and because of that we can forge a way through."
You’re about to head off to France to watch the All Blacks and things feel a little low-level at the moment for the fans here. Have you had a chance to talk to the team management about where the team is at and how they are assessing their chances of World Cup success?
“Clearly the time out in Bordeaux has been positive and they are getting some fit bodies back after time to refresh so that’s positive for them. I think they are in a great space. I returned to New Zealand soon after the opening match and as a team they were disappointed but optimistic, so I am looking forward to getting back on a plane and hopefully I’ll make the captain’s run and get a chance to see a few of the team. I do know that, like all teams there now, they are just focused on the next job and for them that is Italy this weekend.”
In your time in charge the All Blacks have had their challenges, dropping down the world rankings, and I wondered if you had noticed a change in attitude towards New Zealand from the other nations, or do you still feel there is the same level of respect that the All Blacks have been able to engender in others over a long period of time?
“I think as a rugby nation New Zealand is a leader on a number of different fronts, so when I go into conversations around calendars, competitions, player welfare, research into the concussion space, or the work we’ve done in the commercial space which is new and different, there is still an appetite for our input.
“One thing all other parties see is the passion that comes from us when we are discussing the big issues around the table. We have a deep care for the game and it’s part of our DNA. The team itself still resonates. The training run in Bordeaux drew 10,000 fans and they still had a waitlist of many thousands more. The support for and connection with the team feels as strong as ever.”
You’ll have plenty of meetings over the next few weeks. What for you is the biggest challenge from a World Rugby point of view right now?
“It’s hard to isolate one, because these issues all tend to be inter-related. We believe all participants in the game, whether they be professional or amateur, should feel like they are our number one priority in terms of their welfare. That is always something we are thinking about and there are different views across hemispheres on that.
“The shape of the game is something we are hot on because we have to have a sport that is attractive to fans, and new fans in particular. We have seen some heartening trends in some competitions in terms of match duration and ball-in-play time which hasn’t necessarily translated to the international game.
“It’s a terrible term but our ‘product’, if we’re going to connect with new and emerging fans over time, has to be something that is given a lot of thought to, and part of that is also in calendars and competitions which is always something to be worked on. Balancing opportunities for the emerging nations is something that always needs attention. Fiji have shown us what opportunity can do for a side.”
Finally, the NPC is up against it for attention and that’s a competition that is going to go through a process of evaluation. Is there a group together right now looking at the NPC and asking what the competition has to look like in the future in order to become more sustainable?
“We’ve had some working parties looking at that for a good chunk of the year and we definitely see a place for a competition in that space. The NPC has deep connection to the communities in which teams play, it provides aspirational pathways for players and conjures all sorts of history and tradition but, we certainly have some issues to work through.
“It has been heartening to see some of the provinces head into the smaller, community grounds which has in turn led to a great response from those communities so we’re seeing the change and acknowledgment from some of the provinces that we do have to think differently about the competition.
“We know the provinces treasure the NPC so here’s hoping we can continue to establish ways to keep it resonating with the fans.”
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