Asking prominent Kiwis aged 70-plus: how old is too old to lead a nation?

What do Ian Ferguson, Ngāhuia te Awekōtuku, Dick Frizzell, Tessa Duder and Bob Harvey think of fellow 70- and 80-somethings Joe Biden and Donald Trump? By Ben McQueen.

In the troubled aftermath of last weekend's US presidential debate, 1News selected five successful and respected New Zealanders, all aged in their 70s and 80s, to hear their thoughts on the performance of Donald Trump, 78, and Joe Biden, 81, and the discussion around the appropriate age for world leaders.

At 72, Ian Ferguson MBE is the youngest of our group. He's also New Zealand’s second highest winner of Olympic medals, having won four golds and a silver in canoeing, and attending five summer Olympics between 1976 and 1992.

Ian Ferguson took time out of his trout fishing holiday in Rotorua to share his incredulous reaction to the debate, and to the US Election in general.

“I just look at it and I think: how are they getting elected to this position?”

He thinks that someone should “write down a list for the Americans” of what they should look for in a presidential candidate.

“Have a tick-off box: has he got morals? Is he a good family man Is he inspiring?”

Ferguson thinks the issue of age is “not so critical” to the election. “In history, there’s been a lot of younger people like Hitler or Stalin who over-control countries and have been terrible, horrible people. And you get some older people like Mandela or Ghandi — they had the respect of the whole world.”

Ferguson believes older leaders bring a lot of benefits including respect, empathy, and experience, and because of their age, the public has the advantage of hindsight. “Their history is out there for everyone to see, whether it’s good or bad. And this is what gets me, both [presidential candidates] at the moment have got pretty bad history.”

Despite this, Ferguson does admit that older candidates aren’t as energetic as their younger peers and might “need a nana nap every now and then”.

But he believes that the character of a candidate is what matters. “I don’t think anyone in New Zealand would think: I’d like Trump to be my father, or grandfather… it’s not the way you’d want a father or grandfather to be.”

Ferguson, a grandfather himself, finds it hard to imagine that candidates like Trump or Biden being chosen in Aotearoa. "I think New Zealanders are a little bit more savvy than that.”

Ngāhuia Te Awekotuku MNZM, 75, is a renowned academic, author, and activist, focusing on Māori and lesbian issues. She recently released her memoir, Hine Toa: A story of bravery, which documents her life as a trailblazing voice in women’s, queer and Māori liberation movements.

Ngāhuia Te Awekotuku found Trump and Biden's debate last weekend “profoundly distressing”.

“340 million people, and you’ve got those old dudes as the best the population can put forward, I mean it reflects a really dystopic America.”

Te Awekotuku has had a lot of experience in the political sphere. She was famously denied a visa to visit the United States in 1972 on the basis of her homosexuality.

She says the discourse around the age of the candidates is largely “irrelevant”.

“I’m Māori. I’m Polynesian. I’m from a culture that reveres, observes, follows, the wisdom and the value of age. Gerontocracy is a value, a customary value, that we hold very dear.”

She regrets that Biden was “not up with his game” and describes his rival Trump as a “geriatric playboy”, and the “ringmaster of his own circus”.

A particular photo captured during Trump’s early presidency which shows Trump and a group of Arab oil billionaires with their hands on a big glowing globe has stuck with her for years.

She worries what the impact of the election will have on Aotearoa and other fragile Pacific nations.

Te Awekotuku believes that the debate is “just a moment” and that each candidate on their own is not what’s important, it’s the team behind them that matters. “It’s about not an individual… not a solo act, but a collective and responsible gathering of like minds with clear intent.”

The 75-year-old says she doesn’t feel her age and looks to her uncle, Sir Bom (Robert) Gillies who at 99 was “running around in Italy” in April for ANZAC commemorations, and she thinks “Yes! That’s us!”.

Dick Frizzell MNZM, 80, is an iconic New Zealand artist, known for vibrant work spanning multiple styles and six decades. He became a somewhat controversial household name in the 80s with his work combining pop Kiwiana iconography and Māori motifs.

“The mind boggles,” says Dick Frizzell after watching the “horrific” debate from a hotel room in San Francisco.

On Biden, the artist says it was “frustrating seeing a man my age fumble and stutter like that”, adding that it was “weird how he can’t skewer Trumps bulls**t when he hands it to him on a plate.”

Frizzell, a great grandfather, thinks that Biden is a “basically decent man” and doesn’t agree with those calling for him to step down as a candidate.

“I think Biden and his team do know what they’re doing. It’s just that the boss is no great public speaker.”

He agrees that older candidates bring something to the political space that everyone can benefit from, but admits “I would say that wouldn’t I? I’m 80!”

Similarly, he doesn’t think there should be a cut-off on the maximum age of candidates in the running to lead a country.

“You could lose someone who actually knows what they’re doing!”

Frizzell, who is currrently enjoying a road trip around the US with his wife, doesn’t seem to be thinking about slowing down, declaring that he “just finished a 1900 x 2400 landscape the other day — didn’t fall off my box!”

Tessa Duder CNZM OBE, 83, is one of New Zealand's most beloved and successful authors. She wrote the Alex novels, a young adult series, the first of which was for many years Penguin New Zealand’s best selling book of all time. In 2020, she received the Prime Minister’s Award for Literary Achievement. She also holds a silver medal for swimming at the 1958 Commonwealth Games.

Tessa Duder also got a chance to watch the debate and shares a similar horror at the fact that “an electoral system serving 341 million can only come up with a convicted criminal and a tired geriatric.

“After ten distressing and eventually boring minutes, I had to turn it off.”

The swimmer-turned-author doesn’t think that Biden should step down as she believes he is a “decent, well-intentioned man… albeit frail,” who is a suitable foil for “the demagogue that is Trump”.

“But it’s sad that he didn’t decide a year ago to step aside and go out gracefully. No-one is indispensable, not even presidents.”

At 83 years old, Duder believes that age brings “experience, a sense of history, ability to listen and to assess the big picture, also (one hopes) some humility, generosity of spirit, and compassion.”

She doesn’t believe that a mandated age cut-off is the answer but does lament that “if only people —especially men who’ve tasted power— knew when and how to move on, hand over the reins!”

After a long and storied career, Duder affirms that many of those in the older age bracket are still fit, mentally capable, and have a lot to offer.

Sir Bob Harvey KNZM QSO, 83, had a long career in advertising before being Mayor of Waitakere City from 1992 to 2010. He was also president of the New Zealand Labour Party in 1999 and 2000. He holds multiple awards and was knighted in 2013, partly for his long involvement in surf lifesaving.

No stranger to politics, Sir Bob Harvey watched the US Presidential debate and had a straightforward reaction. “I thought it was an absolute disaster,” he says. “It was tragic, it was funny and it was hideous.” 

As a former ad man, Harvey has found much to appreciate about the US in his lifetime. And it pains him, he says, to see the nation in its current state. “Both parties have had a long time to sort out this sh** and they haven’t. There’s no way out. It’s a Greek tragedy, they have no one to blame but themselves.” 

Harvey, who is credited with transforming the images of two former New Zealand Prime Ministers – Norman Kirk and David Lange – has complex feelings about both the US candidates. “One can only loathe Trump, but you have to admire his survivability. He has 20 lives.” 

Of Biden, the former mayor says “He’s a truly decent man but when did decent men survive in politics? Decent men finish last. But he’s someone who thinks, someone who has integrity and who genuinely likes America. I think Trump likes only himself.” 

It’s not the age of the troublesome pair that bothers Harvey. “I have no problem with older politicians – look at people like Ghandi. Older politicians can bring respect, enormous wisdom, sanity and the mana of a country. 

“But those people are alert, they’ve got their faculties. If you step into the highest office of a world superpower, you’ve got to be able to do your thing. I feel you know when your time is up.” 

By contrast, Biden's debate performance was “a trainwreck,” says Harvey. “He’s clearly losing pieces of his thought processes, his mind. And I thought, go now. Shakespeare would have loved this character, but he would have given him an exit stage right.”

The only people enjoying this, says Harvey, will be the Russians and the Chinese. “They will be looking and saying ‘well look, at the sun of the American Empire sinking into the Pacific Ocean.’  

“Empires are kind of like dinosaurs, they go instantly.”