Defence Minister Judith Collins says bringing forward replacement planes for the Air Force's aging Boeing 757s will involve "big money", while refusing to say whether the Government could bring forward an order for new jets.
In her interview with Q+A's Jack Tame, she also spoke to geopolitical tensions and the ongoing debate about New Zealand's potential participation in AUKUS Pillar Two.
On the subject of bringing forward the purchase of replacement planes, Collins said "we'll have to see".
The 757s have been subject to scrutiny after one broke down during Prime Minister Christopher Luxon's trip to Japan after years of problems.
She described the state of our fleet as "dire", with less than half of planes operational.
One 757 is in long-term maintenance, along with two Hercules aircraft.
"They're all really old… planes do not get better with age," she said.
"We are in a difficult position."
The addition of five new Hercules in August and September would be a "good thing" but she conceded it was "pretty tough", saying the Defence Force had done "extraordinary work with very little kit".
"We have the fourth largest economic zone in the world — we cover Antarctica as well. We do a lot of these... work for Pacific countries, around illegal fishing, around illegal movement of people, drugs, and then we're also used in places like North Korea, sanction work."
Defence briefing 'one of the most depressing'
When asked about challenges facing the New Zealand Defence Force, Collins said the briefing she read as an incoming minister was "one of the most depressing ones I've ever read".
"What we have seen is massive decrease in attrition, so we're down to now about 9.7% across the board."
Covid operations "hollowed out" the Defence Force, she said, making staff think "this is not what I joined for".
The briefing also said there was "minimal or no remaining use-life" in most defence assets, such as property, buildings and wharves, with many personnel living and working in buildings that were "unfit for purpose".
It described maintaining safe living and working conditions as a "constant challenge".
Collins said "significant" investment would be needed to correct this and public-private partnerships could provide a partial answer to issues such as housing.
"We do, as a Government need to look at how we can reconfigure, do things better, and at the same time, have better outcomes."
Challenges of regional security and climate change
In last year's Defence Policy Strategy Statement, climate change and increasing geostrategic security challenges in the Pacific were identified as the two key issues driving New Zealand's defence priorities.
Collins described the geostrategic risk as "very grave".
"We just have to look at Ukraine, what has happened there, look in the Middle East, look in the tension around the South China Sea and Taiwan Straits — things have changed, and we should never underestimate just how much they changed when Putin decided he was going to illegally invade Ukraine and ignore all the rules that we have been trying to live for many years."
The relationship between Russia and China could be "interesting", Collins said.
She said China is a nation that "has been and is a very good friend" to New Zealand, adding that it is "testing its way through" in its position as a "growing power".
"It wants to be a much greater power, I think."
She suggested "facts" had been missing from the debate about New Zealand's potential participation in AUKUS Pillar Two – about sharing advanced military technology under the trilateral defence partnership between Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
Undersea capabilities, quantum technology and artificial intelligence were some of the technologies that could be included.
"It is a security agreement, and we should always be part of security agreements if they work in New Zealand's best interests," she said.
Collins said people forget we are "not a non-aligned country", providing the Five Eyes intelligence alliance, the Enhanced Partnership with Singapore and Malaysia, and our allyship with Australia as examples.
"We have been around for a long time, and we are not non-aligned."
The Defence Minister said New Zealand cannot be at the bottom of the world "thinking no one notices us".
"We are absolutely in a prime position that we have to take responsibility for a large part of the Pacific, and we can't do it without defence."
When asked about New Zealand's participation in a military operation involving the Israel Defence Forces, recently found by the UN to potentially have committed war crimes in Gaza, Collins said RIMPAC was the "most important military training operation" we are a part of.
"We are really fortunate to be part of this, where we get to— our people get to be working in submarines and ships, we could never afford to do things — it is not our call as to who is invited to that."
Choosing not to go because of Israel's participation would only hurt the New Zealand Defence Force, she said.
Q+A with Jack Tame is made with the support of New Zealand On Air
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